Transcript: Carole Arnold Show with Cara Rice -
9:00 - 9:30 segment, Friday, May 16, 2003:
Cara Rice (substitute host): ...it's Friday, it's the last day of the week...we do have a pretty good guest lineup for you guys today - first, he's kind of a regular for the Carole Arnold Show I guess you could say, this is his third appearance in 3 months - but he keeps coming up with new stuff to talk about - and that is Tom Elmore - he's the executive director of the North American Transportation Institute...
...If you listen to this show at all - you realize that Tom is a fanatic about the railroads. He loves every aspect of it. He loves the history. He likes to paint trains, watch trains, listen to trains - he wants us to have a light rail system. He wants us to have trains - he wants Amtrak to stick around, all that kind of stuff. And it's kind of pitted him against one of our congressmen, Ernest Istook. And you guys have had some kind of harsh words to say about each other. He's been on the show talking about you, you've been on the show talking about him - so why don't you give us a little history of that, Tom.
Tom Elmore: Well, I'll tell you that on March 11, I was on the way home from Washington, DC where I'd gone to talk about the transportation situation in Oklahoma with our congressional delegation and others. I was standing on a railway platform in Baltimore waiting for a bus to the Baltimore Airport with a friend from Saint Louis who is executive director of a transit support organization up there, Citizens for Modern Transit. We were talking about things and another gentleman walked up and my friend from St. Louis introduced me to this fellow and said, Tom this is the director of Salt Lake City Transit.
Cara Rice: Just for a little bit of background, why is that important.
Tom Elmore: Well, I'll tell you why it's important - because you may recall back in 1996 we tried to get a light rail circulator in downtown Oklahoma City off the ground. It was to be built entirely in Frank Lucas' congressional district. Congressman Lucas was for it. The senators were for it. Mayor Norick was for it. Everybody was for it - everybody had worked very hard. And that year we only wanted back 13 million of the roughly 30 million we send in every year to the Federal Transit Trust Fund - for use here in Oklahoma City. 13 million in one year. Something stopped that - and that something is a fellow named Ernest Istook who stepped over into the business of Frank Lucas' people, who never got an opportunity to vote for him or against him - and wrote a very nasty letter to the house transportation subcommittee chairman from House Appropriations, a guy named Frank Wolf - BLASTING and impugning the motives and the integrity and the veracity of the OKC planners who had drawn this thing up. "They say the want the money for this - but they really want it for something else" - you know, you never can trust those people in Oklahoma, you know how we are down here.
Cara Rice: (Laughs) - uh huh...
Tom Elmore: Anyway, suffice it to say that the money went away. The project went away. Oddly, however, Salt Lake City, Utah came up with a 35 million dollar federal fund for new start for transit. Now, I want you to understand, I've got nothing against Salt Lake. I've spent a lot of time there, I know it very well, and I'll tell you that if there's a city in the West that really needed to get a start on some highway alternative transportation, it certainly was Salt Lake - because they've got a day to day air quality problem. The city is in a basin there with the salt lake and the air quality is so bad, I've been out there many days when the commercial radio stations were saying, "please don't come outside if you don't have to..."
I don't begrudge them that system at all. The problem I have is Ernest Istook --- well, as you may know, Congressman Istook also happens to be a Mormon bishop. And, many people have told me over the years that they've seen him out there a LOT. Well...
Cara Rice: That's been one of your main accusations, is he's all for Salt Lake because he's a Mormon and he doesn't care all that much about Oklahoma City, kind of...
Tom Elmore: I don't know what his motivations are and what his religion is has absolutely nothing to do with it, as far as I'm concerned, except, obviously, that could be a reason that he's out there so much. But, you know, I began putting 2 and 2 together with some other odd things that the congressman has done over the years - which, basically, I used to be kind of an Istook fan.
Cara Rice: Well, you are from the same party...
Tom Elmore: That's, true. I'm a Republican precinct chairman in precinct 22 in Cleveland County and, a conservative and a longtime activist, and, of course I've worked on these transportation issues at my own expense and with my association here for over 12 years. Cara, I know what I'm talking about. I don't get defeated in debate with people over these issues - and, as to my "fanaticism" for rails, I'll admit being a railfan going back to the time that I was a little kid. But there's more than that to it - and the more you learn the more you understand the power of that particular technology. Interestingly, Dallas, Ft. Worth, St. Louis, Denver and Salt Lake have all taken their old Union Stations or existing railway corridors and turned them into marvelous new rail transit systems which are serving their cities very well. And - so I feel vindicated in some respects - uh - but, back to Mr. Istook.
We said back then - you know, I said back then in putting 2 and 2 together - I'm a pretty bright guy; I'm a little slow sometimes but I eventually catch on...
Cara Rice: It had the appearance of impropriety...
Tom Elmore: Well - it had the appearance of a guy who, to raise his own stock elsewhere, was jerking Oklahomans around and trying to make Oklahoma look bad before the U.S. Congress and, uh, perhaps --- uhh -- er, a, to, uh, effect something that he wanted done somewhere else to further raise his own stock somewhere else --- and I said so. Lord, I was called everything from "a religious bigot" to just a plain old nut - about it.
Well, anyway, back to March 11. I'm standing on a platform in Baltimore. The director of Salt Lake Transit walks up. He's introduced to me, I'm introduced to him. When Tom introduced me to him, he says, "he's from Oklahoma City." Suddenly, the director of Salt Lake Transit lit up like a Christmas tree and - and - I can only describe his expression as, this is a man who had something to say that he thought I needed to know. I believe he was sincere and I believe that he was as insistent, I would say, as he was because he believed that I needed to know this if I didn't already know it.
Cara Rice: Right.
Tom Elmore: And here's what he said - Gee Tom, most folks wouldn't believe how helpful an Oklahoma congressman has been to us in getting our light rail system established and set up in Salt Lake City. You know, Istook's out here all the time. Has been for many years. Has been intimately involved in the development and funding --- (laughs) -- of the Salt Lake Transit - of the light rail system, from the beginning. He probably knows as much about it as any of us do. And he went on and on -- about it...
Cara Rice: So, like now your suspicions are being confirmed from this guy, at least...
Tom Elmore: Well - Cara, there wasn't any doubt about it. There's not any doubt about it in my mind. There never was any doubt about it. Anybody that knows Ernest Istook - this is a man who's interested in himself. He thinks politics is about talking; he doesn't think it's about listening. He's interested in himself. Why does he hate THE HEARTLAND FLYER, you might ask. Let me tell you what I suspect. He hates THE HEARTLAND FLYER because along the way Senator Don Nickles who faithfully served the people of Oklahoma by getting righteous funding for a new start passenger train for us - also got us a pilot project position to be able to use some of the transit funds, as I told you we send roughly $30 million a year in, that very little of it do we ever get to use - so it goes elsewhere. It buys transit elsewhere. Senator Nickles made it possible for us to be the pilot state on a project to be able to use perhaps some of that transit funding to support intercity passenger trains. But if it goes to THAT, how can it go to Salt Lake?
Cara Rice: So you think that's - I mean, what is the motivation? Is it just that he doesn't like Oklahoma and he really likes Salt Lake City? I mean - if he doesn't like Oklahoma, why would he be here?
Tom Elmore: You'd just have to know Ernest Istook - that's all I can say. Moreover - why is he so in love with the I-40 Crosstown project - a project which will destroy the only remaining Union Station in the West which still has all its original yard space - which would be a marvelous center for development of multimodal transportation which we desperately need? Cara, if we didn't know we needed it before, recently, Little Rock, Arkansas, together with all of these other cities that I've named surrounding us, broke ground for a light rail system. We are now mobility-uncompetitive in the region. As a former Oklahoma City planning director who now works in Colorado told me, he said, "up here in Denver, we can't built enough parking space at park-and-ride lots for the RTD light rail trains."
Cara Rice: So do you actually see a time - or envision Oklahoma City relying more on a light rail system - at least around downtown - than cars?
Tom Elmore: We oughta be doing it now. We're now 30 years behind Dallas-Ft. Worth and, uh, falling further and further behind Salt Lake and Denver - now we're behind Little Rock in that area - and here's what the former planning director said to me: he said, "Tom, think about this. I will retire up here. I don't know anybody who wants to retire where they have to rely only on automobiles to get around." The retirement-age population is a great population to woo to your state if you want people who are responsible and well-off and can help build up your population. We're in line in Oklahoma to lose another congressional seat in 2010.
But - back to the issue. Why does Congressman Istook so love the I-40 Crosstown? Because it will destroy --- and this is speculation on my part, but informed speculation --- perhaps it's because it will destroy the Union Station yard and take Oklahoma City out of the running for the foreseeable future to be a competitor with Salt Lake on transit funds.
Cara Rice: WOW!
Tom Elmore: Look - look. Oklahomans need to wake up. They need to wake up. They need to wake up.
(Commercial break)
Cara Rice: We're talking about the relationship between the I-40 Crosstown and the light rail system in Salt Lake City - but before I go any further, I want to get one thing out of the way. If you like trains - if you're like Tom - the Oklahoma Railway Museum is having an open house tomorrow, May 17, uh - they are at 3400 NE Grand, just west of I-35 and they're right next to the 45th Infantry Museum. That sounds like a pretty fun day, especially if you have a kid that likes, uh, train rides, and trains - they're gonna be giving short train rides every hour on the hour from 10 until 4 tomorrow, and the train is composed of an engine, a dining car and a caboose. So, see the museum, take a little train ride, enjoy the open house - sounds like a lot of fun. What do you say about that, Tom?
Tom Elmore: Well, interestingly Cara, that rail line that that particular nonprofit group - I was once associated with that group as president for the organization for years - I'm not on the board anymore and unfortunately don't have the time to be real involved, but they've done yeoman work out there and they're putting together a great developing museum and part of this is they have leased and are redeveloping the old KATY rail line that goes up to the Zoo-Omniplex area directly from Union Station.
Cara Rice: Very good. Hey, looks like we have a caller, Tom. Let's talk to Charlie. Charlie, welcome to Newstalk 1520, KOMA.
"Charlie": Cara, you're doing a great job filling in for Carole.
Cara Rice: Thanks, Charlie.
"Charlie": Thanks for taking my call... Tom, I have a question I'd like to ask you and I realize there's a certain amount of speculation about this: but, when Congressman Istook turned down or opposed the funding for the light rail system, one of the things he said was that when he went to Washington, he did not go there to "bring home the bacon," but he went there to bring, you know, financial responsibility to government. One of the things I don't understand about this Crosstown expressway - it's exceedingly expensive -
Tom Elmore: A half billion dollars --
"Charlie": Yeah, well, at least 350 is what they're admitting.
Tom Elmore: Well, of course, they started out at 236. They held strong to that when I said a half billion, then they went up to 300 million and I still said a half billion. I noticed yesterday they're now up to 350 million. It's gonna be a half billion dollar project folks, and it's 4 miles of highway.
"Charlie": My question is, though, I cannot imagine how that would be better than rebuilding the Crosstown expressway, widening it to a 4 lane, perhaps ...
Tom Elmore: You could do that for about 20 million bucks...
"Charlie": Well, I just can't figure out why they're doing it unless they intend eventually to tear it down and somehow have a road that doesn't block the visibility of the whole Bricktown thing - maybe make a better crossing for the canal running underneath it and --- maybe a view of the river.
Tom Elmore: It has a lot more to do with ---you can be certain of this --- you're not being told the real story. It has a whole lot more to do with allowing developers a free hand to do development they want to do down there than anything else.
"Charlie": In the area where there Crosstown is right now?
Tom Elmore: Absolutely - of that I am absolutely convinced - and in the usual "better to rule in hell than serve in heaven" attitude that has kicked Oklahoma down to 47th in per capita income - the only state west of the Mississippi to lose a congressional seat at the 2000 census - Lord above, how much further can we fall? You're fixin' to find out.
"Charlie": Well, of course, you know the congressman will be here any day with the top two transportation people...
Tom Elmore: That's right
"Charlie": And one of the things that was interesting to me was that in this last campaign election cycle Mayor Humphrey was campaigning very hard for congressman Istook...
Tom Elmore: Yeah
"Charlie": ...and I knew at that point in time, uh, he was now about bringing the bacon home to Oklahoma again.
Tom Elmore: Yes, and here's what Istook says about the Crosstown now: "If I-40 isn't fixed, it cripples local, state and national transportation" - which is just a lie. He's even compared the Crosstown to the Webbers Falls bridge which, of course was KNOCKED DOWN by a barge.
"Charlie": Yes
Tom Elmore: The I-40 is just one segment. The quickest way to insure the continuity of the cross-country corridor would be to change the signs on 240 and 44 and tell through truckers - hey, go this way and you won't have to flip your truck on the Ft. Smith junction.
"Charlie": Well, you know, perhaps that's so - but it just looks to me like it would be so much wiser to rebuild the Crosstown, perhaps widen it to a four lane and rebuild the thing than it is to do this exceedingly expensive thing and a new track.
Tom Elmore: Well, you've got a good point.
Cara Rice: Thanks, Charlie for your call. Tom, we're almost out of time, but, real quickly, would you consider the Heartland Flyer to be a success at this point?
Tom Elmore: Well, it's a success against all odds. It's a success against a department of transportation that has tried to hurt it. I'm not talking about the rail office, those boys have done everything they could to help the train along and they've done a good job - but the top leadership from the time Neal McCaleb was Secretary of Transportation, they were told that if they'd go ahead and extend the train north to Kansas City, the train would immediately begin to cover most of its operating expense with mail and express contracts that are already in place and have to be trucked between Kansas City and Ft. Worth. They REFUSED to do it. Then, Herschal Crow went around the state last year making fun of the train saying it can't cover it's costs - well, of course it can't Mr. Crow, you good 'ol boys cut its legs out from under it before it got started.
Cara Rice: That's our music, Tom, we've got to go, but, hey, would you suggest that if people are interested in a light rail system they contact Ernest Istook's office and let him know?
Tom Elmore: Well, absolutely, and you can reach ME at 794-7163, I'll be glad to talk to you about it. 794-7163.